It is crazy how democratized the the skill set has become. Argument might be, well, why do they need the designer? And it's like, because the designer is definitely still better at design. I don't think AI is is anywhere near being able to do that part. It does make everyone an eight out of ten designer, but that's why the need is to bring in still that designer that's ten out of ten. You've got a lot of designers that can build their own software now. They can use AI tooling to code, to prototype, to bring to life that original static screen. Fast forward, it's twenty thirty. Are we still recruiting for it, or is it Has it become a much larger role? I think you're gonna see those roles merge more. I think designers will continue to Welcome to the twenty thirty podcast. I'm Keith Jensen, president at CADRE AI. I'm here with Jared Treadley doing talent for Shopify, recruiting talent for Shopify. That must be an interesting one. It's fun. It's fun. I just get to focus on designers. So So it's a little niche right in there. So when you're thinking about and you've got a massive background in Thought you're say something else. Yeah. In talent recruiting for creative. Yeah. Actually, we worked together. We did. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. Was at Engine and we were looking for a, I think, a creative director. Yeah. And you found one for us. He was great. But I feel like you're kinda like the name that rings out when it comes to to creative talent. Okay. And I'm so curious I'm curious how your your career's, like, progressed into that. Yeah. I mean, I've been in recruitment now for fifteen plus years, and I was really fortunate that earlier on, ten plus years ago, I worked in in Brisbane, a startup recruitment company. We kinda went out on our own, doing our own thing, and content was was really king for us back then. Like, we really believed in it. This is the early days of Gary Vee, people like that, early days of Serhan, real estate. Just believed in content and believed in applying that to what we did, which is recruitment, which is relationships, which is attracting talent, attracting clients and customers. So I just got on it really early, and I love it. It's maybe just a thing that I enjoy. I like doing it. I like shooting, editing, creating it. Yeah. So I leaned into it. I think, like anyone in some version of sales, whether it's real estate or recruitment, you gotta find your little edge. Yeah. And I really enjoy the social aspect and and the content creation part. So creating your own content was the thing that that got you essentially became a a content creator for the creative recruiting space in a way. Yeah. I mean, I've I feel like it's a way that I'm able to do recruitment in my way and my style. You know, when you talk to recruiters or you especially talk to old school recruiters, you'll hear these these terms of of hit the phones, cold call, you know, chase those, go knock on some doors, and it's like, okay. Sure. That's one way to do it. For me, I was like, I can create this content and maybe just bring the people to me. Bring the talent to me. Bring the clients, the companies I'm gonna engage with, bring them to me. I wanna build my relationships that way. So I used it as a means to get further where I wanted to go, just making it fun for myself. Did you ever think about just taking that on your own? Just just pure content creation? Well, even just being like a a solo shop, you've got this Yeah. Large following. Like, did you think about It's an option. It's always I mean, I've always treated it like my own business. Plenty of fun things to navigate in the US with work visas and whatnot now that I'm here, but you have to treat it a bit like it's your own business Yeah. And I always have. So if it did actually become that, hopefully, I've equipped myself Yeah. To think that way. Yeah. But it's really important to to own it. You know? You have to own the whole thing end to end. You have to take ownership. You have to follow-up. And that is, you know, that's part of owning the business. It's a fun space to be in, assume. I come from the creative background, so I know how, you know, maybe eclectic in some ways that this this audience could be. Yeah. So it's a gotta be a fun space to be in with the people you're meeting. Interesting people always on the creative side. Totally. I think that's what's kept me in it for this long as well and enjoying, like, the relationships I get to build with designers because I just I think they're such an amazing group of people. It's an amazing talent. I'm not a designer Yeah. But I I could only aspire to be one. But, yeah, I think they're a great group of people, and they're very community minded I think as a as a group. So events, get togethers, this type of content engagement Yeah. I think designers love that. So I've been able to lean into that too. And what led to Shopify? It was opportunistic. Yeah. It was an intro from another designer I'd worked with years ago. So, you know, always be always be closing, always be selling. Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah. It was an intro off the back of another designer I'd worked with. Funnily enough, this designer introduced me to one of the design leaders at Shopify and said, hey, we're trying to hire designers right now. I think you'd really enjoy speaking to to one of our heads of design. They could use your help. I went, great. That's what I do. Yeah. Let's chat. And I came into that call thinking, oh, great. They wanna engage me as a as a recruiter, you know, externally. Yeah. And halfway through the conversation, it was like, no. No. No. We want you to come and work for us. We want you to work here. I went, oh, that's not what I do. And that's how it started, but I was really honest with them all throughout the process of like, hey. This is not something I've necessarily done before in terms of working in house. Yeah. This is not my forte. My forte is finding the best designers and getting them into the best possible roles for them. Yeah. And they said that's exactly what we want. So I leaned in, I went for it, and it was good timing. Shopify is on such a push with design. It is such a a turning point and evolution for them as a business, and for me, that's super exciting to get behind that. And it kinda ties back to some of the content piece, I think, because Shopify wanted to be known as the place for the best designers to go. And that's not you can say that. That's a great statement. But to do it is a whole other thing. So how how could I, as maybe a recruiter that's responsible for finding that design town, how could I tell that story of why any designer would wanna be there? If you're the best designer, why do you wanna be at a company like Shopify? I think there's lots of great reasons. And you ask anyone there, they'll say there's lots of reasons. Yeah. But how do we tell that story? And sometimes that shows up in in the content. So that's been part of the fun challenge that I've enjoyed since I've been there. What have you seen change about, let's just even say, like, interviews and candidates when it comes to like, AI is now everywhere. Right? And I think it's tough for sometimes someone who's like, you know, marketing's got the art and the science side. Design is arguably Yeah. Fully art. Yeah. But there's gotta be ways that AI is helping Oh, I think in this. So do you find that candidates are leaning in more to the AI side or resisting it? I see a mix out there. Right? And some will definitely be resistant to it. Similar to to the art and science comment. Right? Taste will be something you'll hear all day long when someone starts talking about hiring designers, about design talent. Do they have taste? Taste hasn't really been replicated by AI yet. So I I do feel that it's not a good time resistant to the AI side of things. I've met, worked with, and surrounded by so many designers that have embraced AI tools, AI workflows, ways to supplement what they do as a designer, and they are further ahead because of it. They're doing so much better, and I see companies that have adopted this this way of working, these tool sets. And to get a job at a company like that and, you know, name any frontier tech company right now, their designers are using AI tooling. Yeah. So if you're really resistant to it, okay, like, none of us truly know the future, but it's hard to argue with where a lot of it seems to be going. Yeah. I would imagine there's got to be a spot for the person who's just a purist about it. However, you want to work at a a certain level of company, you want to aspire to be a certain level of of creative in the space, like you, it would be probably hard to get to that point these days without some kind of lean in on the AI side. You think about output. Right? As a designer, any type of creative, there's gonna be some expectation of output at some point. What are you putting out there? What are you what are you creating? If you're a product designer working at a tech company, how are you helping make our product better, making our software? If if the tools, the AI helps you get the output at the level that you want, at the speed that you want, at the quality that you want, then why not use it? And and if you don't use it and you can't get to that output, it's a really hard argument to make. It's like Yeah. Why why are you holding off? And if you can get there without if you can beat if you, without AI, can get as far as somebody with AI, then you have a really great skill set. And by the way, if you used AI, you'd probably be even further. Probably? You know, like, there's just I haven't met that designer yet. Oh, yeah. That can get there. You know, where and this this, I'm sure, will come up in our conversation. I think the roles are blurring closer between, say, design and engineering. You've got a lot of designers that can build their own software now. They can use AI tooling to code Yeah. To prototype, to bring to life that original static screen. Now they can actually build it. So if you wanted to be able to do that without using AI, you've gotta be a designer, a coder, an engineer, like Yeah. It's a it's a lot of skills to have to throw in there. Yeah. Yeah. The the I mean, even at Cadre, we have clients where we will, you know they'll sign with us. We'll say, okay. We're gonna go build this this thing for you Yeah. Using AI, and it's gonna help you, you know, get more efficient. And before you know it, we've trained them a couple times on on Claude, and the founder is building exactly what we we said we were gonna build for them. We're like, we love this. This is great. Let's go build something else for you. Yeah. I'm like, but it is it is crazy how democratized the the skill set has become Yeah. Across, I I think, most things, you know, engineering. Baseline now. Yeah. Right? So now if if you're gonna come in as a designer into that environment where your CEO is already vibe coding up prototypes Yeah. That's awesome. The argument might be, well, why do they need the designer? And it's because the designer is definitely still better at design than that CEO or founder is. And that's where the idea starts, and that's that shared place of communication, the prototype, the vibe coded idea, but the designer takes it next level. And honestly, I have not found a lot of success in using even like, you know, Claude to I mean, I'll I'll have Claude go and and scrape a bunch of phone calls and Slack and all these things to come up with really great ideas. Yeah. I haven't seen the the actual, like, ad quality production Be great. You know what I mean? Like, that taste that you were saying earlier of, like, being able to look at something and go, it's fine Yeah. Versus, no. That's that's good. Mind blowing. Yeah. Right. And I don't I don't think AI is is anywhere near being able to do that part. Yeah. No. It's it does make everyone an eight out of ten designer Yeah. Arguably. Yep. But that's why the need is to bring in still that designer that's ten out of ten. Yeah. It takes that idea, that takes the eight out of ten starting point output and just goes another level up. What about, you know, designers, I think, historically, have typically been, like, pigeonholed to static. Right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Now with v o three and and HeyGen and all these different platforms out there to be able to to create video, do you find that, like, video production capabilities are also kind of merging in with more traditional design roles? Where I've been spending a ton of my time recently is is more product design, right, designing apps, designing interfaces, things like that. But it's that same challenge or gap. Right? Designers previously designed in static. Here's here's what the the flow will look like. Here's what the experience would look like in a series of static steps. Now, any designer with AI tooling should be able to bring that to life in an actual usable prototype Yeah. With motion, with interaction, with subtle movement and moments Right. And that becomes that source of truth For any founder, for any executive, product, engineering, every person in that business now has almost a working version of that idea Yep. That's so much more effective to test, to ideate, to play with. And so that's where I think the tooling where it can bring these things to life, that's like becoming a differentiator for sure. So again, back to that point, if you're a designer not using AI and you can't do that, maybe you're getting left in the dust. Yeah. In my early career, very early, when I got out of grad school, I really wanted to write and design. You know? I was like, I I like coming up with the ideas, and then I wanna actually design it, you know? And I wanna see it all come together because I I just couldn't fathom you know, having not been in an agency at that point, I couldn't fathom how someone's writing it and someone else is doing the visualization. That possibly bring my idea to life. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I so I didn't wanna be be the person just writing it and rely on someone else, and I didn't wanna be, you know, designing someone else's idea. I ended up going into a much smaller agency that that was, like, happy to have somebody who wanted to do both Yeah. Versus bigger agencies that are like, no. No. You're this or you're that. Yep. And I would imagine that it's it's that's kind of coming full circle in a way because now you have designers who, if they wanted to, could use AI very easily to create the the ideation, the the copy. Yeah. Whether the even if they're getting the copy from a copywriter still, the copywriter could start doing a first pass at what they're thinking. Totally. Because it's really difficult to write copy and not have especially for, an app or something, and not know exactly where it's going to go and how it's gonna pop And so that ability to do that UI through AI has gotta be helpful. You're seeing you're seeing all that merging between the roles. Like, the lines are really starting to blur, and I think any designer that is extending themselves, so the copywriter that's now extended themself to be able to do that maybe first pass of the UI, that designer that is extending themselves and is able to make front end code changes so they can tweak some padding or space or whatever it might be, that ability to extend oneself through AI, that's that is where the blurring is happening. Think our product managers now are are vibrating prototypes. Your founders doing it, like, they're just extending themselves. So that's just gonna keep blurring, and teams might get a bit more lean. Yeah. I'm just gonna see more of that, I think. Do you feel like the the way to continue to attract great talent is going to be through content? Or do you think that that going forward, like, is gonna be so it's like a it's just a table stakes. It's there. It's it's everybody's doing it, and you're gonna have to find another way to start, you know, figuring out where the best talent is. There'll always be a mix. Right? As as the barrier lowers to create content, yes, you'll probably get more slop. Right? And more of that's gonna be out there. How do you cut through that noise? I think our space already has a level of noise. I look to someone like my favorite creators, someone like Casey Neistat, just enjoy that stuff right here in New York City, and that's that's almost more authentically made. Right? Yeah. A person with a camera shooting, editing themselves, and that kind of cuts to the noise. So when I think about content, I think authenticity. And if I'm authentically creating the content that I want and the messaging that I want, then I hope that will still attract the people that I want, and that'll find its way through the noise. I think as things continue to to busy in that space, anyone just has to adapt and find a bit of that edge. And it's it's a combination of things like content, but hiring great talent is relationship building too. And some of it's super long term. So maybe a piece of content attracts someone, maybe I bump into someone on the street in New York, at an event, whatever it might be, but I still need to be able to nurture that relationship. And then my content pops up pops up. It becomes the reminder to that person over the next twelve months that I'm still around, And the minute they're ready to make that change, they call me. So hopefully. Hopefully. Any advice to some of the younger talent who's maybe getting out of school Yeah. Wants to be a designer? Like, what do you maybe are there things even in, like, an interview where you're like, they say that, they're out. Like, is there any, you know, tips or tricks you can give away to somebody who's coming up? I think this is probably one of the best times to be an early stage career designer. It's tough because out there, it feels like the demand is definitely for more senior. Companies wanna hire really experienced designers. But I do feel that through this building mentality that designers have right now where they can bring their ideas to life, build whatever they want with the tools, any junior designer now has this level playing field, build whatever you want and put it out there. Same kind of content creation, just build and broadcast. Put it out there, show it off because that captures eyeballs, and that kind of work, people buy into that regardless of your experience level. So I've seen a lot of, like, really early stage career designers, people still in university who haven't even graduated yet, and they're just jamming on ideas, building something that they enjoyed, vibe coded, whatever, sharing it on Twitter, sharing it on, well, x, whatever whatever the platform is, putting it out there, and people are getting excited about it. And they're getting call ups from companies saying, hey. This is really cool. They're getting in the room, and the work is just doing the talking. So I think this is a time where really cool work, really beautiful, interesting, interactive, fun ideas are getting eyeballs regard people see that before they see a resume, a LinkedIn profile, anything to do with your your background or your commercial skills Yeah. They just saw something really cool. So I think this is a prime time for that. So spec work. Lean in on you you may not be working at Shopify, you're like, you you may not have a job. Yeah. Do amazing spec work, and that and make have Find it. Like, get it. Something. The the best companies that hire designers want curious designers, and curious designers tinker and play constantly. They found themselves sharing a recipe with a friend and went, why don't I build an app for this? Yeah. And now they have a recipe app. They were trying to do something around the house and wasn't working. You know what? I could build a little house management system for this, and so they built it in a weekend. Those types of designers, companies really wanna hire, so anyone can be like that. Yeah. What do you think it is? You mentioned earlier that you feel like there are a lot of great reasons for a designer to to be at a company like a like Shopify. Like, what do you think those are? Like, if you're speaking to any of that talent out there that's looking for something, like, what are the major things that whether it's Shopify or any other, you know, kinda larger brand, but specifically Shopify in this case, like, what are the things that that would make it so attractive for them to wanna be part of that team? Look. Every designer's looking for something a little bit different, but I think majority of designers wanna be places that are pushing really great technical environments. Right? So resources or a place that is embracing AI, for example, where they can lean in, they can play. I think any company that has a high bar and value for design, where design is clearly you know, has a seat at the table, is really part of of building great software, that has to be obvious, that has to be apparent. I think where we're heading is those curious designers that everyone wants to hire, they also need time and space to play, explore some of the best ideas I've seen come out of designers inside companies is projects they weren't actually on. Really? Lurking in a Slack channel, saw something that maybe, like, I think we could make that a little bit better, or I think there's something there. Could why don't I just come up with an idea and pitch it to that team? And then all of a sudden, it's got steam. Great ideas win. So if you create an environment where designers with amazing talent can come in and have a bit of space for curiosity, for play, you build that in, and and the culture supports that where great ideas win, I think really great designers just wanna be in a place like that. I remember early in my career, it was always the agencies that felt like the most like, that's where you wanted to be as a creative. Right? Yeah. Because you get to work on all these different brands. You could try all these different things. You're put on different teams. I went I I started on the agency side, and then I went internal. Yep. And I found myself that I learned way more Oh, yeah? Internally. Yeah. And and honestly got the the chance to kind of roam and and tinker and do something. Like, I learned video production just because I was in house at a company, they said, we wanna do this little video. You think you could figure it out? And I'm like, alright. Let me try it. So, you know, and I taught myself After Effects and do that me or any of these types of things. And I still use it to this day, you know, twenty something years later. But, like, I I wonder, are you seeing that that there's still this this push or pull between being in an ad agency versus being internal? I think it comes down to the individual a little bit, you know, and and what they desire, where they're at. There's always, like, pros and cons to both sides. I think at the agency, it's their job to do some of the most beautiful cutting edge work. That's how they win as that's how they win more clients, more brands to work with. So, you know, if you go there, you're gonna be pushed to do your best work. The con might be once you do that work and hand it off, did it land? Did it work? Where did it go? Maybe you know, you're done unhinged. A lot of people complain that, like, the idea that one Yeah. The the brief, once it gets out into production, is totally different. Totally different again. So sometimes you lose a little bit of that control that you might gain if you went in house. So I really think it just depends on the individual and where they wanna be. If I think about design recently, I still feel like product design and and building apps, building software you're seeing more of it happen in house at the moment. Team's really pushing that. Great brands. I still think there's some amazing brands out there as well doing a lot of stuff through agencies. Yeah. It's a bit of a mix. Okay. Fast forward, it's twenty thirty. Yeah. Not that far away, but also with the way, you know, things are changing every week now, so I had a bit imagine where we're at by then. But design in general, I mean, are we still recruiting for it, or is it has it become a something that is is a much larger role? We're already talking about designers being able to do UI New UI. And being able to do design. Like, do do you think it's morphing into more of a of a human managing, you know, prompts, or do you think that there's truly still people that are in design programs? Are they opening up Photoshop or the you know? I the programs maybe will I mean, they change every week right now as well. I think you're gonna see those roles merge more. I think designers will continue to almost creatively direct their agents, their outputs. They'll have to oversee that. You'll see teams get more lean because a designer will be able to do more, I think, on their own. Maybe they're managing multiple, you know, agents at time and and outputting more. So teams, I think, may shrink a little, but I I still believe there's gonna be a need for that designer and their opinion, their discernment, their taste, their ability to create the inputs for their agents, their ability to, you know, check the outputs that are coming from them, and and even just that creativity. Right? If if you just kept designing off of what's already there, you're just gonna be remixing and rehashing what already exists. I think the humans can be so creative, and they're gonna bring that next level to it. So the designers will have all the skills and the technical skills in twenty thirty, but there's still gonna be this need for this human creative, I think, in there. I'm excited for it. I think it will be really interesting to see. Yeah. I think I'll still have a job. I think I'll still be employed. I think there'll still be a need. But, yeah, at the end of the day, when we're designing for humans still somewhere in there, humans gotta have some touch in there too. Agreed. Awesome. Right on. Thank you so much for coming by. Appreciate it. Right on. Thanks.